The Guns and Ammo Thread

[MutantScalper]

About any conflict since the cold war? It's only fairly recently that they have gone out of style in the West, but they still see heavy use across Africa and the Middle East.

Yes. Now that I think about it, in Close Combat 5's Vietnam war mod the Australian troops used FN FAL's. Pretty good weapon with a slightly slower rate of fire but probably good in jungle environment due to large round. Possibly not quite as 'iconic' as AK variants or M-16 etc. but that's ok, Euros aren't as war hungry.

But you said "FN" and I wasn't sure you were referring to FN FAL.

 

[TheGM]

Euros aren't as war hungry.

 

[SuAside]

Well, the G3 is another fine battle rifle, so much for sure.

Personally, I find it an inferior design due to the controls (charging handle manual of arms & BHO), roller locking and how harsh it is on the brass (fluted chamber + violent extraction&ejection).
That said, you'll never feel outgunned if you have a G3, that's for sure.

The US adopting the FAL is something of a Big What if with me. Hell they are the reason it's chambered in the caliber it is. But there was a bunch of shenanigans pulled to get the M14 adopted over the FAL or AR-10 and it's just something I find interesting to think about.

The bigger What If would be: what would have happened if the US hadn't forced NATO to adopt and they would have gone with FN's & Britain's .280British instead? Imagine if you had decades of improvement into that intermediate cartridge? How far would we have gotten by now?

But you said "FN" and I wasn't sure you were referring to FN FAL.

I didn't.

 

[TheGM]

The bigger What If would be: what would have happened if the US hadn't forced NATO to adopt and they would have gone with FN's & Britain's .280British instead? Imagine if you had decades of improvement into that intermediate cartridge? How far would we have gotten by now?

They wouldn't be battle rifles. so they would suck.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Personally, I find it an inferior design due to the controls (charging handle manual of arms & BHO), roller locking and how harsh it is on the brass (fluted chamber + violent extraction&ejection).
That said, you'll never feel outgunned if you have a G3, that's for sure.

I do prefer the FN Fal over the G3. It seems to be also more comfortable in automatic fire, even though both rifles kick like mules. Sadly I have no experience with either.


I just remember someone who used to fire both the G3 and the G36 in the German Bundeswehr (Army), and he called the G36 a "Piece of junk made of cheap plastic" compared to the G3. He might have been biased, as he performed most of his duty with the G3, and people can get really attached to their equipment. Not beacuse it is necessarily 'better' but simply beacuse they got used to the faults, and now they get a weapon where they have to figure out the flaws and workarounds for it. In that sense, it is also strange that when the M60 was introduced, it saw a lot of positive receptions called 'The Pig', but in the late 70s and 80s it was not very liked, which maybe had something to do with the fact that many guns started to wear down a little. Forgotten Weapons, a really cool weaponchanel on youtube, talks about it here:

 

[MutantScalper]

I didn't.

Well somebody did.

Anyway, maybe I should apply for a reservist RK-95. Can't get it full auto for civilian use but full auto is a bit sketchy with the RK anyway. Perfect for home defence needs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rk_95_Tp

 

[zegh8578]

G3 is the only firearm I've ever tried, standard service rifle during my mandatory service. I really liked the primal feeling of always carrying it around, for someone who had never shown much interest in weapons prior to that. After, I was really curious in the whole industry, and did a lot of research, for then to think back at the G3 with even more pride. It really is a beast, and gruesomely enough, it can be seen in war footage - AK47 versus head, causes holes. G3 versus head, splits the whole thing wide open.

Also, during the NOKAS bank robbery in Stavanger, Norway, they were desperately failing to bring the main window down. They showered the glass with AK bullets, which did nothing but poke inconsequential holes in the glass. Finally, they used a G3, and actually *sawed* along the edges of the glass, spending some 200 bullets on the effort. The glass came down, and they took off with some 30 mill NOK

After any day on the firing range, we would all have pink and swollen shoulders, because of the recoil (and lack of any mechanism to really soften it)

 

[MutantScalper]

G3 is the only firearm I've ever tried, standard service rifle during my mandatory service. I really liked the primal feeling of always carrying it around, for someone who had never shown much interest in weapons prior to that. After, I was really curious in the whole industry, and did a lot of research, for then to think back at the G3 with even more pride. It really is a beast, and gruesomely enough, it can be seen in war footage - AK47 versus head, causes holes. G3 versus head, splits the whole thing wide open.

Also, during the NOKAS bank robbery in Stavanger, Norway, they were desperately failing to bring the main window down. They showered the glass with AK bullets, which did nothing but poke inconsequential holes in the glass. Finally, they used a G3, and actually *sawed* along the edges of the glass, spending some 200 bullets on the effort.

After any day on the firing range, we would all have pink and swollen shoulders, because of the recoil (and lack of any mechanism to really soften it)

Did you get to hang around US NATO troops while in the service? When I visited Alta we drove past a military base with a soldier up front guarding who saluted.

You're lucky if you got to shoot a lot. When I was there it was mostly saving, a couple of real bullets and plenty blanks. And even more running around shouting "bang!"

 

[zegh8578]

Did you get to hang around US NATO troops while in the service? When I visited Alta we drove past a military base with a soldier up front guarding who saluted.

Oh, yes, but not me, I was relieved some months before the year was completed, I was having increasingly difficult time there, struggling with my own head. It is another of my very few regrets, because I know in retrospect it was my then undiagnosed autism wrecking havoc with me. Ever since I identified it, coping has been a lot easyer, and I actually never had any issues with the actual activities in the military service (while every "normal" trooper seemed to complain a lot about trivial things, such as being yelled at. I didn't have any problems with that I have since seen it as them reacting against a strict adherence to orders and discouragement of any individual initiative - you should not be taking initiatives, when you're a private. Sit, wait, obey. For me this was absolutely ideal: Do when told to, wait when not told to)

But yes, they do indeed host annual(?) winter warfare exercises up north, since the conditions are perfect for it, and most NATO members have an easyer time travelling to Norway than Canada.

And not so much shooting, we had a month or so where we had some days on the firing range, just to get to know the rifle, ammunition, and different distances, but after that it was back to blanks.
It's something I've always liked about (at least our) military, they are very pragmatic. Hazing is non-existent, because they expertly counter any hint of disagreement between troops. It's all about functionality. Me, a weirdo was lumped with every other weirdo, they read their soldiers like open books, and we were all in "Logistics", exactly where we belonged
Me personally was in supplies

 

[MutantScalper]

Oh, yes, but not me, I was relieved some months before the year was completed, I was having increasingly difficult time there, struggling with my own head. It is another of my very few regrets, because I know in retrospect it was my then undiagnosed autism wrecking havoc with me. Ever since I identified it, coping has been a lot easyer, and I actually never had any issues with the actual activities in the military service (while every "normal" trooper seemed to complain a lot about trivial things, such as being yelled at. I didn't have any problems with that I have since seen it as them reacting against a strict adherence to orders and discouragement of any individual initiative - you should not be taking initiatives, when you're a private. Sit, wait, obey. For me this was absolutely ideal: Do when told to, wait when not told to)

But yes, they do indeed host annual(?) winter warfare exercises up north, since the conditions are perfect for it, and most NATO members have an easyer time travelling to Norway than Canada.

And not so much shooting, we had a month or so where we had some days on the firing range, just to get to know the rifle, ammunition, and different distances, but after that it was back to blanks.
It's something I've always liked about (at least our) military, they are very pragmatic. Hazing is non-existent, because they expertly counter any hint of disagreement between troops. It's all about functionality. Me, a weirdo was lumped with every other weirdo, they read their soldiers like open books, and we were all in "Logistics", exactly where we belonged
Me personally was in supplies

I was in the logistics company too, or "maintenance" but as a medic and becoming a medic wasn't automatic, you had to apply and be chosen. The guys who were medics were some of the best soldiers in the brigade, sort of bookish perhaps. Nerdish. But very competent. Didn't want to become an officer although they told me "You're a tall fellow with authority, go and be an officer". Nah, I wasn't into that crap back then. Today, with my newly found interest in military crap, maybe. Being an officer means you're like doing extra stuff and not getting any benefit from it so I didn't see the point.

I was an ok shooter but didn't go to the sniper course since I figured being a medic was a better choice, and it was. Don't know what I'd do with sniper skills IRL but medic skills are always needed.

Edit. Well maybe I would be better in Counter Strike had I gone to the sniper course. Oh well.

 

[zegh8578]

I was in the logistics company too, or "maintenance" but as a medic and becoming a medic wasn't automatic, you had to apply and be chosen. The guys who were medics were some of the best soldiers in the brigade, sort of bookish perhaps. Nerdish. But very competent. Didn't want to become an officer although they told me "You're a tall fellow with authority, go and be an officer". Nah, I wasn't into that crap back then. Today, with my newly found interest in military crap, maybe. Being an officer means you're like doing extra stuff and not getting any benefit from it so I didn't see the point.

I was an ok shooter but didn't go to the sniper course since I figured being a medic was a better choice, and it was. Don't know what I'd do with sniper skills IRL but medic skills are always needed.

I susprised myself also, by being a decent shot I hadn't expected it. I really look back at it with regret, because if was such a weird combination of absolutely not fitting in, and struggling a lot mentally, and fitting perfectly. My officers were really surprised that I had these issues getting worse, because I was, apparently, a model soldier - something that really surprised me, I didn't think so at all
In retrospect, I have often wished I could re-live it all, but with a better understanding of myself.

I appreciate having learned some very basics though. I'll know what to do if I get a G3 slapped in my hands some day... well, as much as any insurgent would, I guess, but that's way more than someone who never even saw a rifle in their lives.

My best friend here was medic, and also autistic ("similar children play best" we say here), and like me, undiagnosed at the time. He had absolutely no problems coping with his situation though. He got to shoot a (sedated) pig, and sew ut up. Also had to poke themselves with syringes. No thanks to that!
I did one time pose as an accident victim in shock, when we re-created a car crash for a new group of recruits That was a fun day. We had our lunch in the mess hall with our faces full of fake facial cuts and blood. We got some priceless stares, most had to guess what was going on, and with naive, inexperienced youth, some of them looked terrified...
One of us was even fitted with a little hidden pulse-pump he could squeeze, to shoot fake blood from his wrist. The things they come up with...

 

[TheGM]

he called the G36 a "Piece of junk made of cheap plastic" compared to the G3.

Been some time but I remember hearing about how in Afghanistan that plastic housing in the gun sits in couldn't really handle the wear and tear. Cold weather would really mess them up. don't know if they got better or not.

 

[zegh8578]

Been something but I remember hearing about how in Afganhistan that plastic housing in the gun sits in couldn't really handle the wear and tear. Cold weather would really mess them up. don't know if they got better or not.

Norwegian military adopted them, then soon after un-adopted. To me, that speaks of first - advertisement, buying a weapon at face value - for then to actually field test it, and sourly regret the decision. I don't think they are even in use, while still transitioning to HK416, prefering the G3 instead, which is solid as a locomotive.

 

[TorontoReign]

I prefer the M4, but I would love to own a G3, maybe a SAW, a few Claymores...Hehe. I am pretty sick and tired of the American fetish with the AR15 to be perfectly honest, especially using the M16 so much while in the Army. My wife's Dad owns 5 AR15's for fucks sake. He does own one of those Israeli combat shotguns though, I forget which one. Of course I say all of this while owning one, but familiarization is key when choosing a rifle for home defense/hunting/target practice. Plus the occasional coyote attack which hasn't happened to me in years since we owned cattle, but it is good to be prepared in case they try to eat my tortoise. Speaking of which I need to get a new scope for the AR because those tactical ACOG scopes suck.

 

[zegh8578]

America sure has a deep love for the AR15 base model, indeed. The 80-90s were innovative for a while, with many possible replacements appearing, but you were almost catapulted right back to "tried and tested" it seems

Just for the sake of variation, I always find other designs to be fascinating. I like the "matter-of-fact"-ness of the SA-80, it has a really charming uglyness about it, like pure business no play, compared to the much more "energetic" and toy-like XM8. Bull-pups are still going strong also, despite never seeming too popular with American military. Britain and France rely heavily on them, and China too

Not to mention the mysterious Vector bull-pup of South Africa, that I could ever only find grainy pictures of, with one sole example - all-white special variants in the District-9 movie :I

 

[TheGM]

Bull-pups are still going strong also, despite never seeming too popular with American military. Britain and France rely heavily on them, and China too

Everybody seems to be dropping the Bullpup now. France dropped theirs for the HK416. China dropped theirs for the Type 87. British Special forces already canned the L85A2 in favor of a M16 variant. their main army did a refit for the L85 about a decade ago so they might adopt something new in the next decade or so.

 

[zegh8578]

Everybody seems to be dropping the Bullpup now. France dropped theirs for the HK416. China dropped theirs for the Type 87. British Special forces already canned the L85A2 in favor of a M16 variant. their main army did a refit for the L85 about a decade ago so they might adopt something new in the next decade or so.

I didn't know. Interesting France went with a foreign made one, there's a lot of national pride in weaponry, among the most powerful countries (like MBTs, everyone in Europe buys Leopard II, except Britain, France, Italy, the main powers - they gotta have their own!)

 

[TheGM]

I didn't know. Interesting France went with a foreign made one, there's a lot of national pride in weaponry, among the most powerful countries (like MBTs, everyone in Europe buys Leopard II, except Britain, France, Italy, the main powers - they gotta have their own!)

I guess the writing was on the wall for FAMAS when the French Government shut down the factory that made them. I don't know what the market was like for French small arms, they've been more about Big Tech items like Tanks, Ships, Planes and missiles.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Oh well, the FAMAS or the 'Trumpet' as some call it, is also damn fine looking weapon.

Did you also know that the Soviets had even in the 1940s prototypes for bulpup designs? And gosh they had so many of them over the years ... for their AKs, their snipers. You name it. I really have some fetish for Soviet small arms, up to the DSHK and Kord heavy machine gun.
You can't hipfire 12,7 mm? Everything is possible with the help of Stalin.

I prefer the M4, but I would love to own a G3, maybe a SAW, a few Claymores...Hehe. I am pretty sick and tired of the American fetish with the AR15 to be perfectly honest, especially using the M16 so much while in the Army. My wife's Dad owns 5 AR15's for fucks sake. He does own one of those Israeli combat shotguns though, I forget which one. Of course I say all of this while owning one, but familiarization is key when choosing a rifle for home defense/hunting/target practice. Plus the occasional coyote attack which hasn't happened to me in years since we owned cattle, but it is good to be prepared in case they try to eat my tortoise. Speaking of which I need to get a new scope for the AR because those tactical ACOG scopes suck.

You know, another weapon that I really would not mind to shoot is the Galil
Not only does it look interesting, but it is also pretty durable, from what they say which should not come as a surprise since the AK family of rifles was a large inspiration for it.

Been some time but I remember hearing about how in Afghanistan that plastic housing in the gun sits in couldn't really handle the wear and tear. Cold weather would really mess them up. don't know if they got better or not.

Well ...

Faulty Rifles puts minister into the crosshair
https://www.thelocal.de/20150508/von-der-leyen-tries-to-hold-onto-reputation

 

[JohnnyEgo]

Got to be home over the Christmas break, and as an added bonus, got to take my father shooting. Pertaining to the topic at hand, one of the guns I took with me was my bullpup Tavor. I've had enough trigger time on multiple bullpups to make some generic observations. These include the FN F2000, PS90, Steyr Aug, Bushmaster M17S, the DTA SRS, and the Tavor.

The bullpup essentially offers two advantages: a longer barrel for a given overall length, and much more comfortable to shoulder for a longer period of time. Unfortunately, those advantages don't often come together in use. While it is handy to whip around corners and keep shouldered in urban and close quarters environments, the extra length of barrel doesn't really do you any favors over a sub gun or a shorty AR. If you are making longer shots, the 20" barrel gives you some greater accuracy versus an AR or SCAR of the same size. But for those longer shots, you don't gain much ergonomic advantage in the more compact form. So in my experience, you rarely find situations where you can capitalize on both the advantages a bullpup offers.

The disadvantage a bullpup offers is a really crappy trigger. I invested $300 to swap out my Tavor trigger pack for a Gieselle Sabra that moved it from absolutely horrible to marginally below average. This is important because on those longer shots, a smooth clean breaking trigger has a profound effect on accuracy. My 20" barrelled SPR will ring steel consistently at 600 yards, reliably at 800, and about half the time at a thousand. I have trouble keeping the 20" Tavor on plate at 400 yards. The Tavor and other bullpups try to be 'Jacks of all Trades', but are masters of none. I'd imagine many armed forces are realizing that it is better to issue variants of the same rifle tailored to a specific application, rather than trying to use one configuration for all purposes.

Would rather have one of these ARs in most situations over the Tavor.

Way better than the Tavor for distance work.
-
Moving on. My father is rapidly approaching 70, and doesn't get out to shoot much anymore. The whole family came out to Colorado for Christmas, and by the third day of being crammed in our guestroom, my mother would have let me take him skydiving, with or without a parachute. So I took him to the local range. He is most comfortable with the 1911, so I brought a couple of them in 9mm, 10mm, and .45 ACP.

I am very good at overpacking. Also brought the Tavor and my MRP so he could get the feel for them. And I brought one of my shorty 870s.

The shotgun was probably the most informative for him. We put the target out at 7 yards, and I loaded him up with four Federal low recoil #00 buck shells. Told him to push on the pump and pull back on the grip to stabilize the shot, but he didn't listen so well the first time. He was also anticipating much more recoil. Managed to miss on three of the four shots, clipping the shoulder on the last round. I showed him again with the three shots in the center (2 buck, 1 slug), and he managed to put a buck shell right between the eyes. Unfortunately, we ran out of our alloted range time.

I like doing things like this because they are educational. This is a 12.5" barrel open choke gun. It is going to give you far more spread then the 18" barrels sold on most domestic shotguns. Even so, at 7 yards, there was almost no difference between slug and buckshot. The shot had not even fully detatched from the wad. My father managed to miss a man-sized target three times at 7 yards, and he is a reasonably skilled shooter. When I did this stuff for a living, I used to cringe when someone would come in and buy a 12 gauge shotgun for their wife for home defense. Not that shotguns aren't great for that purpose, but you do have to aim, and perform complex mechanical actions under high stress conditions to have a follow-up shot. They are truly not a magic wand of death, and anyone who tells you otherwise is profoundly lacking in real world experience.