Unpopular Fallout Opinions

[Vostyok]

The themes of Fallout 2 is that the Enclave is pure evil holding onto it's past. That even American ideas can be tainted into Nazism, and that lack of both care and critical thinking every Enclave character demonstrates why they need to be destroyed completely. There's nothing remotely redeeming about the Enclave. Caesar is wrong, the Master is wrong, the Enclave is totailtirain to the point they are anti-life. If they wanted to cure mutants, and the cure would kill 10-20% of the wastelanders, they'd have a point (but would probably have to be stopped)

They aren't pure evil. That is a misnomer. They are a pastiche of what a lot of people thought of the American government, or at least the crazier side of it. You've got secret experiments on people, you've got 'black helicopters' full of faceless enforcers, you've got a batshit crazy president aided by imbecile puppets, you've got chemical weapons and a shoot-on-sight mentality towards deviancy.

But they're not evil. They can't be. There are plenty of guys and gals in Navarro who actually believe they are doing the right thing. Obviously, you're not gonna just switch sides and join them though. They are still wrong. I like the fact that morality in the first games isn't black and white all the time. And don't anyone dare draw parallels with my arguments and Hitler. That's a sure fire way to start a flame war haha.

 

[Gaddes]

-Fallout Tactics a severally underrated game. I really did like the Mid West BoS, as they are a legit splinter faction separate from the West Coast BoS.
-Speaking of FoT, the Power Armor in Tactics is a good design IMO
-Fo3 and 4 had potential and lots of squandered opportunities.
-I think the T60 PA is a decent design, it just kinda dumb that it has to be pre war. The brotherhood can make an airship but upgrading the old T-45's is a bridge to far apparently.

 

[zegh8578]

-Fallout Tactics a severally underrated game. I really did like the Mid West BoS, as they are a legit splinter faction separate from the West Coast BoS.
-Speaking of FoT, the Power Armor in Tactics is a good design IMO

Agree, and I also really liked the super-mutant design in the game, with their tiny little faces but with really human (as opposed to orc-ish) features

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Oh, and for my piece: Fallout's story should never have left New California or the focus on Vault 13 and the NCR. :p

And in that regard I approve of Fallout moving Eastwards and having new protagonists unrelated to the Vault Dweller or Vault 13 such as the Courier. Couldn't give a damn about the protagonists of FO3 and Fo4 though.

I had hoped that each new Fallout would have been about the player being on the frontier as civilization starts to recover. We would always be on the part that is still only partly recovering and mostly in chaos or untouched by civilized man but we would hear stories from traders and other people back West how a new society is slowly shaping and maturing (and sadly also becoming fat and corrupt again).

-Fallout Tactics a severally underrated game. I really did like the Mid West BoS, as they are a legit splinter faction separate from the West Coast BoS.

I do think it would have been difficult to reconcile them with Black Isle's Fallout even if a reference was made to them Obsidian's FNV. (a bit to big and powerful)

In Bethesda's Fallout I really don't care (anymore). Heck perhaps they should have been a major faction that now seeks to take over the East coast instead of the Enclave. (hmm did we not actually speculate back before FO3 that the Midwest BOS was in the Capital Wasteland when we saw Power Armor images?)

-Fo3 and 4 had potential and lots of squandered opportunities.

Bethesda could have made a genuine Fallout game and setting of their own without referring to much to Fallout 1 and 2, focusing mostly on elements that would be nation wide.
Instead they reduced the franchise to recurring elements on which they believe every Fallout is required to have.

 

[Kommie]

Ghouls and other human type mutants feel like an excuse to have "fantasy" style races in fallout. I.E Super Mutants = orks, Dwarves =... Dwarves.

 

[SiriusShenanigans]

The themes of Fallout 2 is that the Enclave is pure evil holding onto it's past. That even American ideas can be tainted into Nazism, and that lack of both care and critical thinking every Enclave character demonstrates why they need to be destroyed completely. There's nothing remotely redeeming about the Enclave. Caesar is wrong, the Master is wrong, the Enclave is totalitarian to the point they are anti-life. If they wanted to cure mutants, and the cure would kill 10-20% of the wastelanders, they'd have a point (but would probably have to be stopped)

The enclave are not nazi or totalitarian or any of that. Fallout 2 is a game that emphasizes how even with the brutality of the wasteland, something has been gained through the apocalypse and it has evolved into something that is worth protecting and it is a place where society is beginning to take shape in its own way. The brutality of the wasteland is favorable to an insane prewar. And with all this, the Enclave is the embodiment of that insane prewar. Not only that, they are the groups that decided they would sacrifice the real America and caused the great war to happen in the first place. We don't know if they launched the nukes, but they definitely pushed the world towards war, and when it came down to it, they decided they were too important to die, and they sacrificed the entirety of the US to pay for their mistakes. The Enclave is a commentary on many of American Governments flaws, such as over zealous nationalism to enable support in a government that still shoots you in the foot, general bigotry, and the unilateral decision making that makes them unable to listen to reason. They aren't supposed to be a sympathetic villain. They aren't supposed to be reasonable. They are the force that pushed the world to apocalypse, and I can't think of a better villain set up for Fallout than that.

 

[Cobra Commander]

talking about Courier, he´s the best protagonist of the franchise

(this image is my mod, if anyone interested. It's full of flaws, I've never had the patience to fix it, so to work great you need the pipboy 2500 mod)

https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/64682

come on, he´s a fucking cyborg cowboy, how the hell do you compete with something like that? And IMHO his canonical main weapon is the holorifle

 

[Ayelander]

I don't know what it is exactly, but Lanius looks fucked.

 

[Ayelander]

Ghouls and other human type mutants feel like an excuse to have "fantasy" style races in fallout. I.E Super Mutants = orks, Dwarves =... Dwarves.

Even worse with how Ghouls and Humans treat each other like different species. We get it Skinflaps, you don't like damn dirty humies. But you're still one under all that necrotic flesh.

 

[Atomic Postman]

The enclave are not nazi or totalitarian or any of that. Fallout 2 is a game that emphasizes how even with the brutality of the wasteland, something has been gained through the apocalypse and it has evolved into something that is worth protecting and it is a place where society is beginning to take shape in its own way. The brutality of the wasteland is favorable to an insane prewar. And with all this, the Enclave is the embodiment of that insane prewar. Not only that, they are the groups that decided they would sacrifice the real America and caused the great war to happen in the first place. We don't know if they launched the nukes, but they definitely pushed the world towards war, and when it came down to it, they decided they were too important to die, and they sacrificed the entirety of the US to pay for their mistakes. The Enclave is a commentary on many of American Governments flaws, such as over zealous nationalism to enable support in a government that still shoots you in the foot, general bigotry, and the unilateral decision making that makes them unable to listen to reason. They aren't supposed to be a sympathetic villain. They aren't supposed to be reasonable. They are the force that pushed the world to apocalypse, and I can't think of a better villain set up for Fallout than that.

I think you misunderstood my original point. I think they're good villains. I was more addressing the people who list them as their favourite faction or think they're the coolest or even agree with them or whatever. You can find a few on here with APA+American flag avatars making threads of "Why the Enclave is the only solution for the Wasteland" or "Enclave in Chicago??? (Im writing a fanfic XD)". In truth they're tongue-in-cheek satire of Cold War US government that's meant to frighten you as you realize the only remnants of the US Government are completely and utterly fucking nuts and are completely destroyed for good like they're some ancient dragon in a fantasy setting. They're cool as villains but if you unironically agree with them, you're a moron buying into actual satire.

 

[SiriusShenanigans]

I think you misunderstood my original point. I think they're good villains. I was more addressing the people who list them as their favourite faction or think they're the coolest or even agree with them or whatever. You can find a few on here with APA+American flag avatars making threads of "Why the Enclave is the only solution for the Wasteland" or "Enclave in Chicago??? (Im writing a fanfic XD)". In truth they're tongue-in-cheek satire of Cold War US government that's meant to frighten you as you realize the only remnants of the US Government are completely and utterly fucking nuts and are completely destroyed for good like they're some ancient dragon in a fantasy setting. They're cool as villains but if you unironically agree with them, you're a moron buying into actual satire.

Oh, yeah totally. You have to be crazy to agree with them. No qualms there.

 

[Gaddes]

And in that regard I approve of Fallout moving Eastwards and having new protagonists unrelated to the Vault Dweller or Vault 13 such as the Courier. Couldn't give a damn about the protagonists of FO3 and Fo4 though.

I had hoped that each new Fallout would have been about the player being on the frontier as civilization starts to recover. We would always be on the part that is still only partly recovering and mostly in chaos or untouched by civilized man but we would hear stories from traders and other people back West how a new society is slowly shaping and maturing (and sadly also becoming fat and corrupt again).





I do think it would have been difficult to reconcile them with Black Isle's Fallout even if a reference was made to them Obsidian's FNV. (a bit to big and powerful)

In Bethesda's Fallout I really don't care (anymore). Heck perhaps they should have been a major faction that now seeks to take over the East coast instead of the Enclave. (hmm did we not actually speculate back before FO3 that the Midwest BOS was in the Capital Wasteland when we saw Power Armor images?)




Bethesda could have made a genuine Fallout game and setting of their own without referring to much to Fallout 1 and 2, focusing mostly on elements that would be nation wide.
Instead they reduced the franchise to recurring elements on which they believe every Fallout is required to have.

I think that's on the reasons why I liked FoT and the Mid West Brotherhood so much Dutch, it felt there was some effort to try something new. I do like the fact they are referenced in FO3, NV and FO4 I think and I know Scribe Rothchilde mentions them falling on hard times and not being nearly as powerful as they once where. It's a shame 3 and 4 are just retreads of 1 and 2 with wasted potential.

 

[Vostyok]

Oh, I do agree that the story should branch out a bit to new locations. I think I recall they wanted to take it to other parts of the world at some point. Was it FO-tactics 2 or that Fallout:Xtreme game that wanted to go to mongolia? I forget and am too tired to google.

I kinda mashed my words there, I mean that the story focus has drifted away from the original setting. The games since then have all felt more like spin-offs than actual sequels. Having a recurring story following on from the defeat of the enclave, the building of New Arroyo, the rise of the NCR and their feud with Vault city, what to do about Vault 13. I'm just spit-balling, meh, but it feels so disconnected this story at the moment. Like, does anyone working on Fallout 5 (etc, etc) have a clue where they want to take this?

Having a new story and new setting with a few disconnected stories from the first game and a couple of token "Oh, I'm steve, I knew the main character from the first movie/game/book". Yeah.... that's not a sequel in my book. That's a spinoff.

 

[The Man From Nowhere]

Caesar's Legion would've been a way better and interesting faction had Obsidian just deleted the whole "misogynistic slavers" part.

-

Anyone notice how current or former Legion members are way more intelligent, insightful, and philosophical than NCR folk?

Joshua Graham, Ulysses, Lanius, and Caesar seem to be more intelligent and deep thinking than even the NCR's leaders like Oliver Kimball, Cassandra Moore, Hsu, etc. The NCR mostly just seems to be filled with average forgettable Joes and Janes who aren't even that well-read or inspired by any politics/religion/philosophy by anything or passionate at all about Democracy (which is what they're fighting for, supposedly).

Chief Hanlon is pretty insightful to talk with but that's mostly it.

 

[zegh8578]

Anyone notice how current or former Legion members are way more intelligent and philosophical than NCR folk?

Joshua Graham, Ulysses, Lanius, and Caesar seem to be more intelligent and deep thinking than even the NCR's leaders like Oliver Kimball, Cassandra Moore, Hsu, etc. The NCR mostly just seems to be filled with average forgettable Joes and Janes who aren't even that well-read or inspired by any politics/religion/philosophy by anything or passionate at all about Democracy (which is what they're fighting for, supposedly).

Chief Hanlon is pretty insightful to talk with but that's mostly it.

Well, there's a certain fitting dynamic to it, in that Caesar's Legion is a growing, expanding realm, almost nomadic in nature. The head-of-state is on the front line, Genghis Khan style. We never hear anything about educational institutions or anything like that. The thinkers, the philosophers, the idealists, are all part of the upper tier of the marching, fighting force, and so you can talk to them - you can talk to Caesar himself. I don't hear much philosophy at all from the foot soldiers, just "die!" and cannonfodder charging at me.

NCR is much more of a "by the book" republic, where thinkers and philosophers are "in their place", as in - most likely off in educational institutions back in civilized lands. Politicians are politicians, and do not bother much with deep thinking, and if they do, it's not "your place" as some warrior-courier to have them share their thoughts with you.
NCR is very much an establishment, and plays by those rules, for the good and the bad. The bad is - as often mentioned - the inefficiency of their bureaucracy, but also the inaccessibility of typical civilized countries.

 

[Cobra Commander]

Caesar's Legion would've been a way better and interesting faction had Obsidian just deleted the whole "misogynistic slavers" part.

I agree. I was even thinking yesterday in a parallel between them and the Fremens of Dune.

Like CL, Fremen are malnourished, dehydrated and low tech. But in the lore of the book there is no fiercer warrior. And worse than an adult fremen warrior is a female fremen, because they are even more cruel and savage.

Like, you go to The Fort and there are women being used as a pack brahim. Why do something like that? What do they get out of it? They have TRUE brahmins there, so why use a woman for that service?

I think it would be more interesting if women were used as reproducers, as it is now, but a few selected could be Legion as well. The fiercest and best fighters. Like the Fremen women.

 

[SiriusShenanigans]

I wish legion were based on a group like the mongolian wartribes, as they were a nice mix of savagery and egalitarianism. You might have actually had a case for supporting them as a power without being an evil person. Like slavery would not fly in Ghenghis Khan's state, if I recall correctly. They could be rough, but there was also freedom, and they loved their families deeply.

 

[The Man From Nowhere]

Relatively powerful, morally inspired, a sense of honor and higher purpose, and with some of the greatest minds the series has to offer, at the cost of being brutally ruled with an iron fist.

That would have truly given the NCR and Mr. House a run for their money and made alot more people at least consider they have a good plan for getting things in order. Adding the sexist slaver part just made them comic book villains.

 

[Octavian]

1. Fallout 2 has the worst main quest in the mainline franchise (yes worse than 3 and 4). In a game that offers the player so much choice, and consequence to that choice, the ending to the "meat" of the main quest only has one real resolution, and very limited decision making. Frank can't be reasoned with. The Enclave cannot be sided with, or even spared. The oil rig has to explode. I also found the search for the GECK overall not as interesting as searching for the water chip or Benny. Even though fallout 3 chokes your choices down throughout the whole quest, it at least gives you a degree of choice in the finale.

2. Every DLC in NV is pretty bad and really not worth the money unless bought in the ultimate edition (which is great value). All the dlc suffer immensely for some things that really would not take an outrageous amount of thought or effort to be put in. I'll go over what I would add:

-Let the DLCs leave a lasting impact of some sort on the game world-don't make them entirely self contained. The Elijah holotape is a good example of this, but its very insignificant. Every DLC more or less adds a very reasonable companion to take to the Mojave with you according to the ending slides (Dean, follows chalk, roxie, Ulysses) and even if letting players return to the DLC worlds is too much, I think getting a new companion with a short questline in the Mojave would both be a good reward for resolving their storylines in a certain way in the DLC and give players a window in how the players actions in the DLC actually had impact rather than just being able to write it off as a fever dream. At the very least have some characters have dialogue that references your actions or what happened in the DLC.

-More fucking sidequests and NPCs. Like wtf. The only people you can talk to in HH are the tribals. They could have let Happy Trails live under certain conditions (skill checks/combat etc) or just added more people in general to talk to. Dead Money has 4 fucking npcs. OWB has only the think tank, appliances, and mobius. Lonesome Road has 2 (2!). They could have added just some random npcs just to add life and flavor/miniquest- doesn't need to have a real quest.

10 bucks is 1/6 an AAA game, it should have at least a sixth of the content.

 

[SiriusShenanigans]

1. Fallout 2 has the worst main quest in the mainline franchise (yes worse than 3 and 4). In a game that offers the player so much choice, and consequence to that choice, the ending to the "meat" of the main quest only has one real resolution, and very limited decision making. Frank can't be reasoned with. The Enclave cannot be sided with, or even spared. The oil rig has to explode. I also found the search for the GECK overall not as interesting as searching for the water chip or Benny. Even though fallout 3 chokes your choices down throughout the whole quest, it at least gives you a degree of choice in the finale.

Unpopular opinion: not being able to reason with Frank or Dick Richardson is what makes those encounters good and make the enclave what they are. Also, its the best irony that you go around being made fun of as a "chosen one" and then in the end actually end up having a true destiny to fulfil.