Bethesda planning a survival overhaul. Has hell frozen over?

[Crni Vuk]

Guys, a Dialogue System overhaul that allows more than four options is impossible or rather would be useless, they would need to rewrite almost the entire game's dialogue related scripts, it's way too much work, the game is hardcoded at four options at a time.

Yes, this is so obvious ... that it becomes really painfull. Because even in situation where it REALLY makes no sense, they simply HAD to squeze 4 answers in. How many times can you say the exact same thing, and present it as different answer?

Bethesda should simply come out of the closet finally, remove dialog options, and just call it what it is. A Litterbox Shooter.

 

[cratchety ol joe]

vampirism in Fallout

wasn't that done in FO3 already? >> http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/The_Family

 

[ZigzagPX4]

I've played several hours of Fallout 4 and many side quests, but I didn't run into the Kid in the Fridge once, nor did I bother to pursue the Cabot House quest long enough to see the alien bullshit. I only got as far as meeting Cabot himself, who I wrote off as a paranoid delusional character, and got bored and left the place.

I guess some could consider me lucky, but now thanks to seeing the whole thing on YouTube and all the descriptions of it here, I want to head back into Fallout 4 and experience it for real, the same way people tend to rush towards car wrecks to see what happened. Should I?

Yes, this is so obvious ... that it becomes really painfull. Because even in situation where it REALLY makes no sense, they simply HAD to squeze 4 answers in. How many times can you say the exact same thing, and present it as different answer?

Well, like I said, realistically I can't imagine any dev at Bethesda making the conscious decision to actually put that system in because they think it's good. They do it because they think it's "cool".

I don't think it's possible to imagine a Bethesda developer actively deciding that the dialogue wheel with four answers would be a good idea. I mean, they're just doing it to appeal to fans of other games.

How can you actually picture a developer from Bethesda thinking it would be a good idea to butcher a proper dialogue system in favour of what we got? It's obvious they're doing it to look popular.

It's pretty clear that the devs working at Bethesda did not intentionally switch out an already adequate dialogue system because they genuinely liked it. They thought it would make the game look more appealing to the general audience.

 

[MercenarySnake]

You do realise that Bethesda Softworks are run by a very competent circle of businesspeople, and that for all the shitty bits Fallout 4 had, they're not going to listen to random selections of Internet comments? These aren't worth worrying about.

If it's just stupidity that's your concern, then don't let it be concerning, because stupidity exists everywhere. There exists original Fallout fans who actually give inane suggestions like those ones.

Also, really? Who says "just kidding" after a joke hype comment?

It was an example besides how are we supposed to tell if someone is kidding by looking at a comment that with no indication, mind reading powers? Just saying.
I don't know why adding a feature that should've been in the "survival" difficulty at launch would be worth hyping. It's like "Oh no I have over 300 stimpacks along with an unlimited supply of Mirelurk and Deathclaw steaks, how will I ever survive?"

 

[ZigzagPX4]

It was an example besides how are we supposed to tell if someone is kidding by looking at a comment that with no indication, mind reading powers? Just saying.
I don't know why adding a feature that should've been in the "survival" difficulty at launch would be worth hyping. It's like "Oh no I have over 300 stimpacks along with an unlimited supply of Mirelurk and Deathclaw steaks, how will I ever survive?"

From what I know of Dark Souls 2 and Borderlands, finding new ways to play the same game again is a pretty common thing to be doing. You probably find it strange because normally, people do these kind of replays on a game that's actually good.

 

[Walpknut]

They know perfectly how to do things, whoever tells them to do things just don't care.

Bethesda started out with a solid plan and somewhere along the way one big order came down from the suits to mimic The Witcher and Mass Effect and they had to rip it all apart to stuff this kind of stuff in. It's the kind of thing you can assume just from looking at how it works.

Again, Bethesda Softworks are not stupid. Assuming so is just going to give you surprises and not the good kind, time and time again. They know exactly what they're doing, whether you like it or not. All of it, the flawed features, the bugs, the inability to act as a good sequel within the Fallout series as a Fallout game. They know and they don't care. The only thing we can't be sure of (because we aren't in the company) is which part is the part that doesn't care and which part actually do care.

Never confuse with malice what could be easily explained by stupidity. I think you are giving them way too much credit.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well, like I said, realistically I can't imagine any dev at Bethesda making the conscious decision to actually put that system in because they think it's good. They do it because they think it's "cool".

I don't think it's possible to imagine a Bethesda developer actively deciding that the dialogue wheel with four answers would be a good idea. I mean, they're just doing it to appeal to fans of other games.

How can you actually picture a developer from Bethesda thinking it would be a good idea to butcher a proper dialogue system in favour of what we got? It's obvious they're doing it to look popular.

It's pretty clear that the devs working at Bethesda did not intentionally switch out an already adequate dialogue system because they genuinely liked it. They thought it would make the game look more appealing to the general audience.

Maybe, we both know that.

What simply strikes me, is the fact that no one ever really thought about, hey! What are we going to do in situations where only 2 or even just 1 answer is appropiate. Just make 4 versions of "I FUCK YOU UP!", and be done with it - I mean that is basically what they did with almost all dialogue options anyway ..

It's like this hamfisted good-neutral-evil approach that some RPGs always want to follow. Even if it makes absofuckinglutely no god damn sense.

 

[MercenarySnake]

From what I know of Dark Souls 2 and Borderlands, finding new ways to play the same game again is a pretty common thing to be doing. You probably find it strange because normally, people do these kind of replays on a game that's actually good.

Well if you limit yourself on purpose, which I keep reading up everywhere. Everytime someone says how boring the game is after just their first playthrough someone responds with "Did you explore every area, collect every magazine and bobblehead, do every quest, and limit yourself to guns or melee only?". I shouldn't have to limit myself in a game on purpose.
Yeah I apologize for sounding like an ass, I've had a terrible week.

 

[Crni Vuk]

That's ok. You're on NMA. You are allowed to be an ass here. As long you don't poop at people

 

[ZigzagPX4]

Never confuse with malice what could be easily explained by stupidity. I think you are giving them way too much credit.

Never confuse with stupidity what could be easily explained by greed. I think you don't give them enough credit.

We're leaning on excessive cynicism if we think that Bethesda were too stupid to actually make a decent game, and that by pure luck they're able to make money off it because they happen to market it to a stupid enough audience.

It doesn't fall on top of each other as neatly as that. There's a bunch more factors in it, even if the result is shit all the same.

Maybe, we both know that.

What simply strikes me, is the fact that no one ever really thought about, hey! What are we going to do in situations where only 2 or even just 1 answer is appropiate. Just make 4 versions of "I FUCK YOU UP!", and be done with it - I mean that is basically what they did with almost all dialogue options anyway ..

I think that the new dialogue cross (it's not even a wheel) is just hardcoded to simply not be able to have empty boxes. There would still be the arrow things pointing to where there should be text but is blank, which doesn't look very sleek for an AAA game. So they had to go with filling it somehow.

Either that, or as my other theory states, they fucked up development midways and had no time left to fill it in with something halfway coherent because top dawg of their publisher says the game goes by 2015 or bust.

Well if you limit yourself on purpose, which I keep reading up everywhere. Everytime someone says how boring the game is after just their first playthrough someone responds with "Did you explore every area, collect every magazine and bobblehead, do every quest, and limit yourself to guns or melee only?". I shouldn't have to limit myself in a game on purpose.
Yeah I apologize for sounding like an ass, I've had a terrible week.

Again, limiting yourself after a no-limits, standard playthrough is a pretty normal thing, except it's usually done in a good game where doing such things as limiting yourself is fun. I don't like the concept of limiting yourself as a way to force yourself through the game, but if people geniunely enjoy doing it, they can go ahead.

Man, don't worry about it, this place is ass central. I'm very sure that several people come here because they've had a terrible week. This is a fantastic forum to vent in.

 

[Spacemunkey]

Well, like I said, realistically I can't imagine any dev at Bethesda making the conscious decision to actually put that system in because they think it's good. They do it because they think it's "cool".

I don't think it's possible to imagine a Bethesda developer actively deciding that the dialogue wheel with four answers would be a good idea. I mean, they're just doing it to appeal to fans of other games.

How can you actually picture a developer from Bethesda thinking it would be a good idea to butcher a proper dialogue system in favour of what we got? It's obvious they're doing it to look popular.

It's pretty clear that the devs working at Bethesda did not intentionally switch out an already adequate dialogue system because they genuinely liked it. They thought it would make the game look more appealing to the general audience.

I think it was a way to cut corners, tbh. I've seen BGS games being dumbed down over the years but FO4 just felt like it wasn't finished. This is apparent to me in areas of the dialogue where it legitimately sounds like it was cobbled together.

Just make 4 versions of "I FUCK YOU UP!", and be done with it -

This made me think of the nihilists from The Big Lebowski, so thanks for making my movie choice for tonight.

 

[ZigzagPX4]

To the OP, so we get back on track - hell hasn't frozen over. Even the most incompetent, most greedy of corporations in the game industry knows the concept of responding to fan feedback, and Bethesda is not nearly the most incompetent, nor nearly the most greedy video game company on the planet.

It doesn't mean they have a hidden agenda to soften the blow for a really egregious DLC, nor does it mean they've suddenly became a good company. They're just doing what a company does. Companying.

 

[zegh8578]

"I heard you wanted some Elder Scrolls in your Fallout, so we put some Elder Scrolls in your Fallout so you could Elder Scrolls."

I like GTA, so I demand they make FO4 more GTA-like
I also like Sim City, so I demand they make FO4 more Sim City-like
Come to think of it, I always liked Super Mario Bros, so I demand they make it more Super Mario Bros-like as well.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Yes, this is so obvious ... that it becomes really painfull. Because even in situation where it REALLY makes no sense, they simply HAD to squeze 4 answers in. How many times can you say the exact same thing, and present it as different answer?

Bethesda should simply come out of the closet finally, remove dialog options, and just call it what it is. A Litterbox Shooter.

Elder Scrolls VI and Fallout 5 aren't going to have a dialogue wheel so don't worry. Instead, there will be just two options:

or

Smiley Face or Frowny Face, take your pick in every dialogue interaction.

 

[ZigzagPX4]

I like GTA, so I demand they make FO4 more GTA-like
I also like Sim City, so I demand they make FO4 more Sim City-like
Come to think of it, I always liked Super Mario Bros, so I demand they make it more Super Mario Bros-like as well.

• Adding playable vehicles that will bug like hell along with extra side activities that are just there for the sake of it.
• Expand settlement building into a more in-depth system. Well, as in-depth as Bethesda can do, anyway, which isn't saying much.
• This is already there! You can slam land on enemies with the PA. Now there's just hitting stuff for power-ups, and that sounds Borderlandsy enough for Bethesda to rip it off.

These are not far-fetched ideas.

Elder Scrolls VI and Fallout 5 aren't going to have a dialogue wheel so don't worry. Instead, there will be just two options:

or

Smiley Face or Frowny Face, take your pick in every dialogue interaction.

Bethesda are passive developers. The real concern is whenever another big AAA game does something stupid, they'll replicate it and fail it nonetheless. I can actually see it happening if Mass Effect Andromeda actually does this, claiming it's the dynamic evolution of Paragon/Renegade interrupts. Otherwise, Bethesda can't really evolve or devolve on their own, they tend to require the rest of the industry to do something first.

 

[MercenarySnake]

That's ok. You're on NMA. You are allowed to be an ass here. As long you don't poop at people

I try not to be even though I come off more as hostile, at least I think that I do. I prefer to be friendly unless someone gives me a good reason to blow up.

Elder Scrolls VI and Fallout 5 aren't going to have a dialogue wheel so don't worry. Instead, there will be just two options:

or

Smiley Face or Frowny Face, take your pick in every dialogue interaction.

You might be giving them too much credit, all dialogue scenes will feature dynamic QTE cutscenes with awful voice acting.

 

[ZigzagPX4]

unless someone gives me a good reason to blow up.

Someone = Bethesda
Reason = Fallout 4

all dialogue scenes will feature dynamic QTE cutscenes with awful voice acting.

I cannot believe I am saying this but that would actually be better, if only by an inch, than the half-functional "ooh you can back out of conversations" dialogue in Fallout 4.

I'm not even counting the dialogue cross just yet. Look directly at this character from this range, and trigger side dialogue. Two steps closer, it's main dialogue. There's no exit conversation or refuse quest, you just have to walk away from the conversation like an idiot. Must be staring directly at the other person in the conversation to continue talking and there's no guarantee you will not shoot them while they're flapping their jaws about.

 

[Practicat]

I think Bethesda's marketing team didn't even need to do much to hype Fallout 4. They just needed to ride on the legacy of the series (which wasn't even established by them) and the reception to FO3 and FONV, which they did. They released a SPECIAL video series and some other video interviews with the lead developers, and there wasn't much else they needed to attract the attention they got. So the marketing, without much effort, was a great success.

What I think is nigh unbelievably stupid of them is that they could have included some of the features of past games that were absent in Fallout 4, like a competent dialogue system and the game still would have sold just as well, if not better. In marketing Fallout 4, they could have focused less on the stupid dog and gimmicks, and showed more original ideas with their trailers, such as what Obsidian did with their factions trailer, but they didn't. Had they done so, I believe, with reasons I wouldn't mind explaining, that they would still have preserved the kind of creative integrity that fans of the series expected, and not subliminally brainwashed many people into praising their creatively bankrupt practices and associating the series with a Fallout game that is Fallout only in name.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Yeah, they should have done all of that, and more.
But if you think about it, that they didn't makes a lot of sense - for them. They did as little as possible and sold as much as possible. Win-Win situation. At least this time.
Only the future can show if they will keep up with this or not. I would not be surprised if we will see a lot more critical voices, if Bethesda isn't doing some serious ... modernizing this time around. Either for their next Elder Scrolls game, or more importantly for us, their next Fallout game.
I mean com on. As much as some people here told me, what do you want! Fallout 4 looks good enough! You still have to remember this. They are not some kick starter team working on a 500 000$ project. They are an AAA development team, with decades of experience. I think it is only fair to expect more from them. To be on the forefront of design, improvements, inovation, you name it. And that's why I find the visuals of Fallout 4 so discusting. Not because it looks outright bad. But because it is simply mediocre. Very mediocre.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Considering their utter lack of understanding of RPGs ("let's just put a bunch of enchanted guns like Freezing Flamer and make a bunch of MMO kill/fetch quests and fuck the dialogue and writing/role-playing") I don't think they will be able to even do a proper survival mode. Even if they do manage it, the game has the most cringe-inducing voice acting and dialogue I have ever encountered.

Show me an overhaul for the dialogue system and I might raise an eyebrow. Survival Mode is something an unpaid modder would probably give us anyway. Immersion is their weakest skill so I assume they are just going to put in a food-o-meter and call it a day, and their target audience who never played Fallout 3 or New Vegas Survival Mode will call it the "deepest innovation in gaming history!"

Their version of Survival Mode currently is that you are done in 1 or 2 shots but enemies take 10 or 15. Couple that with the grenade/molotov-aimbots that every enemy uses (seriously, wtf is this grenade-aimbot crap?) and it's not a survival mode in the RPG sense, it's a survival mode in the twitch shooty-shooty bang bang FPS sense.

I will seriously laugh if they pull a Metro Last Light and charge for Ranger/Survival Mode.