Will we ever get to join the Enclave? Or otherwise explore their organization?

Crni Vuk said:
The reason why I am asking, is because the Enclave was build around the idea that EVERY other form of live compared to them was mutated and thus completely wortheless, with the idea to eradicate everything on this planet with a pathogen, Nazi ideology cranked up to 11 to say it that way.

So in which way, is the Brotherhood in Fallout 4 similar to Enclave, if we concentrate just on the ideology behind the movement, and not some superficial characterstics like power armor, vertibirds and that stuff.

*Edit
And fighting super mutants and despising ghouls isn't exactly a novel idea in the Fallout setting - see Vault City.
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Honestly, the idea the Enclave is nothing more than killing everyone in the Wasteland is a cartoonish caricature of them. If you believe that, then there's nothing to them as a faction. Yeah, the Eastern brotherhood of Steel accepts Wastelanders but that doesn't mean they're substantially non-Enclave like in every other respect.
 
CT Phipps said:
Honestly, the idea the Enclave is nothing more than killing everyone in the Wasteland is a cartoonish caricature of them. If you believe that, then there's nothing to them as a faction.
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Maybe you should replay Fallout 2 again. That's simply what the game shows about them, that is what their leader tells you, and that is what their scientists want to achieve. That is the whole plot of F2. Stoping them from killing everyone ...

By the way, I do not see the "Fallout 3 Enclave" as Enclave, they are the Neo-Enclave or what ever you want to call it. The Enclave in Fallout 3 is as much the Enclave, like the Nazis that escaped to Argentina represent the third Reich. I mean there is some conection, no doubts about that. But it is not the same kind of faction anymore. The Enclave as we knew, pretty much stoped with the explosion of the Oil Rig.

I seriously don't understand this ... idea some have about the Enclave when the games are pretty straight forward about their goals and the representation. They do not only seem like cartoonish caricatures of evil villains they ARE cartoonish caricatures of evil villains ... guys ... don't let your fetish for them blind you. You can still love the Enclave for the tech and PA and admit that they are cartoonish villains.
 
Crni Vuk said:
Maybe you should replay Fallout 2 again. That's simply what the game shows about them, that is what their leader tells you, and that is what their scientists want to achieve. That is the whole plot of F2. Stoping them from killing everyone ...
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Yeah, you should play it again. The Enclave I'm interested in is not limited to Dick Richardson's FEV plan. That's a minor part of what we see about the faction. We argue with them over the phone, we get drill sergeants berating us, we see them performing funky ass experiments on Deathclaws, we see them as the true inheritors of the United States, we hear about their connection to the Vaults, and we see them making deals with Wastelander gangs like the Salvatores. We get to see the Enclave as a well-realized bunch of people who just so happen to have a leader who wants to kill all Wastelanders.

Sergeant Rock's adventures are still something I'd love to see.

By the way, I do not see the "Fallout 3 Enclave" as Enclave, they are the Neo-Enclave or what ever you want to call it. The Enclave in Fallout 3 is as much the Enclave, like the Nazis that escaped to Argentina represent the third Reich. I mean there is some conection, no doubts about that. But it is not the same kind of faction anymore. The Enclave as we knew, pretty much stoped with the explosion of the Oil Rig.
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Alas, we don't have enough information about the Enclave to really know what their purpose was. Sadly, aside from Colonel Autumn and President Eden, we don't get a sense of who they were as people. Only some kickass combat foes.

I seriously don't understand this ... idea some have about the Enclave when the games are pretty straight forward about their goals and the representation. They do not only seem like cartoonish caricatures of evil villains they ARE cartoonish caricatures of evil villains ... guys ... don't let your fetish for them blind you. You can still love the Enclave for the tech and PA and admit that they are cartoonish villains.
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Basically, the Empire is more than the Death Star. The Death Star is cool, don't get me wrong, but it's not the whole of the organization.
 
CT Phipps said:
Yeah, you should play it again. The Enclave I'm interested in is not limited to Dick Richardson's FEV plan. That's a minor part of what we see about the faction.
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Yes, and what the Master tells us is also just a "minor part" of the faction, but the one that counts. Dude, don't be so obtuse, seriously now.

You're not starting your quest in Fallout 1 and 2 to get a conversation with Sarge or because you want to see Lou explaining you how SMs take a dump.

If you build your argument on how you "feel" about the Enclave, then it is a meaningless discussion, beacuse I am basing it on what the game shows and what the target of the game is. And working on a pathogene to erradicate the world of everything they see as unworthy - which is pretty much everyone, is as close as it can get to a cartoonish villain ...
 
Crni Vuk said:
Yes, and what the Master tells us is also just a "minor part" of the faction, but the one that counts. Dude, don't be so obtuse, seriously now.

You're not starting your quest in Fallout 1 and 2 to get a conversation with Sarge or because you want to see Lou explaining you how SMs take a dump.
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I'm just saying that if the Enclave started taking Wastelanders but were still a bunch of assholes out to take over the world, they'd still be the Enclave.
 
So the 90 year old fascist German dudes in Argetina are representing the Third Reich, gotcha.

CT Phipps said:
I'm just saying that if the Enclave started taking Wastelanders but were still a bunch of assholes out to take over the world, they'd still be the Enclave.
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You do understand, that what you just said right now, is ... extremly comical and exemplaric for a cartoonish evil villain right?
 
Crni Vuk said:
So the 90 year old fascist German dudes in Argetina are representing the Third Reich, gotcha.
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I dunno, they've had some fictional success in the past.

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The Millennium Group too

I mean, let's face it, if we found out the Nazis in Argentina built a terrorist organization and started launching attacks on the United States then I'd say they were still Nazis.

I also think Neo-Enclave gangs and Far Right NCR parties like the Nazis' actual legacy would be good in any hypothetical NCR-based game.
 
But we are not talking about Enclave MEMBERS we are talking about THE Enclave. And you simply can not recreate that movement again, just as how you can not recreate the Roman Empire again as how it was under Gaius Julius Caesar. That's why we also call them NEO-Nazis today. Neo, like in New, simply because what the Nazis of WW2 have been, died with the capitulation of the Third Reich and the death of Adolf Hitler.

I do not understand why this is so hard to grasp for you ...
 
I meant to say, that the East Coast Brotherhood is mimicking the Autumn's idea of the Enclave or Neo-Enclave if You wish. That is, ruling the wasteland with iron fist, not exterminating enyone on sight. BTW I would question the genocidal tendencies of the Enclave as a whole (See Remnants from NV, "Sarge" Dornan from F2).

EDIT: No matter. The discussion proceeds faster than I'm able to type XD
 
Crni Vuk said:
But we are not talking about Enclave MEMBERS we are taling about THE Enclave. And you simply can not recreate that again, since the old one died. Just as how you can not recreate the Roman Empire again as how it was under Gaius Julius Caesar. That's why we also call them NEO-Nazis today. Neo, like in New.
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I dunno, it's a question of distinction without difference, IMHO. If the Enclave showed up in Fallout 5: Boneyard and was a bunch of NCR nutjobs who had been founded by some of the Enclave members who integrated into the organization (mentioned in the endings to Fallout 2) then that would be a New Enclave but would it really be all that much of a difference? They'd still be a bunch of psychotic power armored racists trying to take over the world.

They just would have dialed down the racism.

It's kind of like the BOS. If the BOS did start taking in outsiders or softening the codex, are they less the BOS? That's a pretty fundamentalist reactionary nterpretation of things. It'd mean only [insert Christain church of your choice] qualifies as Christian.
 
CT Phipps said:
I dunno, it's a question of distinction without difference, IMHO. If the Enclave showed up in Fallout 5: Boneyard and was a bunch of NCR nutjobs who had been founded by some of the Enclave members who integrated into the organization (mentioned in the endings to Fallout 2) then that would be a New Enclave but would it really be all that much of a difference? They'd still be a bunch of psychotic power armored racists trying to take over the world.
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No, because the Enclave is down, just like ... the Third Reich ... seriously.

What those guys 'possing' as the Enclave do, would be in no way different to what the Kings in New Vegas do, when they base their cult/group around their idea of Elvis Presley. They are not a representation of what the real thing was 200+ years ago beacuse it is not a continuation.

The Enclave and what it stood for, is simply gone. It's done. Out of the picture. It died with the Oil Rig. Even a group that used their armor, technology and with the goal to overtake the world and killing every mutant or what ever, would be still a new faction - a super boring one, but still a new one.
 
Crni Vuk said:
No, because the Enclave is down, just like ... the Third Reich ... seriously.

What those guys 'possing' as the Enclave do, would be in no way different to what the Kings in New Vegas do, when they base their cult/group around their idea of Elvis Presley. They are not a representation of what the real thing was 200+ years ago beacuse it is not a continuation.

The Enclave and what it stood for, is simply gone. It's done. Out of the picture. It died with the Oil Rig. Even a group that used their armor, technology and with the goal to overtake the world and killing every mutant or what ever, would be still a new faction - a super boring one, but still a new one.
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I think part of our issue is that I fully believe modern Nazi groups are Nazis. They may not be the Third reich but they are a legacy of them and should be considered such.

Continuity of government is not necessary for the continuity of an ideology.

To be less controversial:

If Cobra Commander died and some random Cobra footsoldier refounded Cobra, it's still Cobra because they believe they are.
 
Than you could even argue that the Legion in Fallout 3 is simply the continuation of the Roman Empire. But they are not. And some new random people runing around in Enclave armor, wouldn't be the Enclave either, even if they followed their ideology. Because there is a bit more it, than just that. Particularly when we're talking about organisations that had such a riggid rule like the Enclave in the form of the President and their clear hierarchy.

And I say this again, stop confusing Ideology with the actuall Movement. You can still be a Communist even with the Sovietunion gone, but since the SU collapsed, you can not 'recreate' it again, like as it never collapsed. That's not possible. Because ... it collapsed! So any Enclave following the Enclave, even if it had the exact same name, would be a different group.
 
Thé khans we see in fallout 2 and nv are neo khans, then. Most were slaughtered in fallout 1 and then again fallout 2.
 
Crni Vuk said:
No, because the Enclave is down, just like ... the Third Reich ... seriously.

What those guys 'possing' as the Enclave do, would be in no way different to what the Kings in New Vegas do, when they base their cult/group around their idea of Elvis Presley. They are not a representation of what the real thing was 200+ years ago beacuse it is not a continuation.

The Enclave and what it stood for, is simply gone. It's done. Out of the picture. It died with the Oil Rig. Even a group that used their armor, technology and with the goal to overtake the world and killing every mutant or what ever, would be still a new faction - a super boring one, but still a new one.
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The Argentina Nazis analogy is more suited to the Remnants from NV (atleast to Moreno).

I wouldn't call regrouped forces a new faction. By Your logic, every time a faction/group alters their ideology, they bacome a completely new group.
The Enclave from Fallout 3 are the forces from Navarro collected by Autumn senior by the order of John Henry Eden, some stayed and become the Remnants and some rolled with it and ended in D.C. After the Oil Rig went to hell, Eden took over (why no one question why they are taking orders from someone they've never heart of, from the other side of the country, is beyond me). They still are the Enclave, grossly undermanned considering all thoose civilians who died at the oil rig etc. but still.

Comparing them to Nazis is wrong, and based on eristics. To make that comparison applicable, the Nazis would have to try to reclaim their homeland by exterminating everyone who is living in it, fail, loose 90% of their staff and supporters, and try again 30 years later.

BTW I'm really tired of the Enclave=Nazis comparison. It is wrong, not becouse I want to whitewash the Enclave, far from it actually, but becouse the values the Enclave appearently uphold have nothing to do with actual nazism.
 
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They should let you join the charred remnants of the Enclave in a future game, just so people can finally join. Something more than what we saw in New Vegas. Let the player join a fearful and depleted Enclave.

Do not bring them back as they used to be, for example most will not have power armor. And they will use brahmin convoys instead of Vertibirds. And they will have second hand weapons, dirty uniforms, and so on.

Perhaps the player can do some quests to make the Enclave great again. But do not bring them back like in 3.
 
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Steve the Enclave grunt said:
BTW I'm really tired of the Enclave=Nazis comparison. It is wrong, not becouse I want to whitewash the Enclave, far from it actually, but becouse the values the Enclave appearently uphold have nothing to do with actual nazism.
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I'd actually argue against this because of Paul Verhoven. Paul Verhoven is the director of the movies Robocop and Starship Troopers. He's also had personal experience with the Nazis and they are, as a result, a big influence on his movies and their bad guys. The thing is, he's had experience as a European so his experience is different from the American perspective that is all about race.

Verhoven created OCP as an embodiment of the Nazi ideal of a corporate-run state. The people in OCP are incidental to making a profit and the combination of them with Reagan-era greed inspired him. Verhoven knew about companies who made fortunes turning military contracts and profiteering into gross human rights abuses all for their own benefit. They were very much Nazis but not the guys in jackboots but power suits with little Nazi pins.

Verhoven also created Starship Troopers (since he didn't even bother finishing Heinlein's book) with the idea of creating wars for the purpose of wars. As a Dutch man, Verhoven's experience with the Nazis was the Third Reich RECRUITING people from countries which weren't German or part of the military involved rather than dividing people up (though that's there too). His idea of a multicultural united humanity all nastily united by HATE of the Other is still inspired by the Nazis.

It's just not the Nazis and their Master Race ideal.

For me, the Enclave have a lot in common with the Nazis and are based on them but they're a cautionary tale about American jingoism and corporate greed gone horribly wrong. They're still fun to want to potentially join in-game, redeem, or destroy because the only people they've ever hurt are their fellow pixels. Seeing the inside of the monster is valuable in fiction the same way I enjoy being a GTA protagonist but would never want to be in RL.
 
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