Dr Fallout
Centurion
Yes. And it works, just search up Genghis Khan.
Will we ever get to join the Enclave? Or otherwise explore their organization?
- Thread starter Sheepo
- Start date
Yes. And it works, just search up Genghis Khan.
Look, you're the only person here I've met who actually thinks he'd do well personally under that kind of system. Sort of like how every nerd secretly hopes the zombie apocalypse will prove them to be the superhero that they are.
But besides that, I don't accept a "maybe" as a definite or acceptable long-term trade.
Earth
Vault Senior Citizen
To be fair, alot of cultural civilisations we celebrate today were sustained by brutal dictatorship: the Roman Empire, the Chinese Empire, Japan, the Mongolian Empire...Even the USA, while never really a dictatorship at the same level as the others, was still built upon slavery and the displacement (and massacre) of the continent's original inhabitants.
When Caesar speaks about a synthesis with the NCR, I think he's very much hoping that his conquering of Vegas will end his need for a constant frontier, and lead to the beginnings of a new civilisation.
When Caesar speaks about a synthesis with the NCR, I think he's very much hoping that his conquering of Vegas will end his need for a constant frontier, and lead to the beginnings of a new civilisation.
Annnnd?
Much of the NCR and the Mojave has culturally superior attainments in medicine, gender stuff and not having slavery.
I can appreciate in an abstract intellectual way that the Legion is an unprecedented cultural powerhouse in Nevada, but that's has a lot to do with nothing. The Khans are descended from glorified bandits, use drug addicts as a proxy bandit army and they still treat their women better. Hell, House is a self-described autocrat and he's still better on all those listed fronts. He's a dick, but he's a dick with some standards.
The Legion is one step forward and two steps back insofar as any kind of worthwhile social contribution to anybody else. NCR is only worse than them because they don't do obvious policy fixes. (Don't overreach. Guard the roads better. Winnow out corruption.)
Caesar is basically crazy. I don't think you really appreciate how literal he's being. He does think that the dialectic naturally produces a superior something from conflict and that conflict itself is necessary and desirable as some sort of metaphysical force. He really does believe that butting heads with the NCR will produce something better just because. At best, he's very uncritical about the whole concept.
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Dr Fallout
Centurion
Well I don't know, the biggest Empire in the world so far was created by using tactics akin to what Caesar used... the thing history has shown that his methods have worked again and again. Sure it's not a happy little democracy full of freedom and equality but it works. Sure it has problems, mainly with succession but it works. And nerd... nice dig at me, had to add that.
Annnd it shows how Caesar can create a stable and peaceful society over brutal means.
They do, but they also suffer from corruption, banditry and low stability, which includes high crime rates and low safety. Why need advanced medicine when the actual need of using it is lessened by an insane amount (no drugs, no alcohol, no smoking, no bandits, no (almost no) crime)? I can't argue against the gender equality, but that doesn't impact the stability and peace of an empire. Actually the Legion use the Fiends as a proxy army... isn't that kind of obvious in the game? Those listed fronts aren't great examples of what's needed to make a nation peaceful or stable, which is Caesar's aim.
Surprisingly I find that the social contribution of lessened crime and lessened violence is better then a weak controlling government that only has freedom because it's too weak to do otherwise, or a dickish overlord that can't give a fuck of what happens outside his palace.
Maybe he is, but he's also pretty cunning. He knows what he's doing.
Okay, very quickly I find a logical problem.
Investigating this with a lazy google search I find:
https://www.quora.com/How-were-women-treated-in-the-Mongol-Empire
Turns out that the Khans in their "Good Ending" is a lot more like the Mongol empire than the Legion. Not really surprising given their aesthetic.
In an ironic turn of events, Caesar is dying of cancer.
Yeah. But putting aside dramatic irony, people really underestimate the benefits of modern medicine. A lot of people think their health and ability is a question of some innate virtue, when, really, it was because flies didn't lay eggs in their fucking eyes at birth. The Legion just has a general contempt for the weak, who are weak through no fault of their own. It's a stupidly arrogant and chauvinistic attitude.
Caesar's philosophy of personal strength and resilience is typical far right-wing garbage. It's the attitude of people who tell me Syrians should go back and fight armed men with AK-47's instead of coming over the border to take what's "theirs." As if weakness of itself, is symptomatic of personal moral fault.
A lot of infectious diseases, that would claim you earlier in life or plague you well into adulthood, are no longer issues. Ever know what it's like to live in a time when tuberculosis was incurable? Hell, do you even have any personal experience with people who've had it?
Nope. Neither do I.
How about dysentery and cholera?
Do you fear catching a cold because the cold can complicate to pneumonia?
And no, I will not trade a little freedom for some security. Even better, why is both unachievable?
Men like Caesar can effectively present a false dilemma. You can have both. His propaganda disgusts me. I'd be weak to submit to his rule rather than seek both things on my own terms.
At least you have bargaining power over House. I can't imagine working for him unless I can twist his arm for concessions about stuff like leaving the Kings alone and not just randomly filling people's homes with concrete for whatever the hell reason. You know, for a guy who ostensibly wants to leave other people alone, he's not very good at it.
NCR at least has decent people like Hanlon and a generally well-meaning citizenry. Much like America, you can find people in the Palestine who don't have a problem with Americans per se as much as they have a problem with its government.
The Japanese seem to view us in an incredibly positive light that I find befuddling. (Americans are viewed as warm, optimistic and outgoing.)
The average Legionary is a xenophobic caveman. Hell, Caesar doesn't even respect them. He thinks they're savages he's elevated. I'm hardly the sort of person who views the tribals as in some state of innocent Eden, but Joshua Graham had to take a look at how Caesar recruits them into his army and go "Whoah, maybe that's a bit extreme."
There's a difference between respecting people's autonomy and idolizing them.
Investigating this with a lazy google search I find:
https://www.quora.com/How-were-women-treated-in-the-Mongol-Empire
Turns out that the Khans in their "Good Ending" is a lot more like the Mongol empire than the Legion. Not really surprising given their aesthetic.
In an ironic turn of events, Caesar is dying of cancer.
Yeah. But putting aside dramatic irony, people really underestimate the benefits of modern medicine. A lot of people think their health and ability is a question of some innate virtue, when, really, it was because flies didn't lay eggs in their fucking eyes at birth. The Legion just has a general contempt for the weak, who are weak through no fault of their own. It's a stupidly arrogant and chauvinistic attitude.
Caesar's philosophy of personal strength and resilience is typical far right-wing garbage. It's the attitude of people who tell me Syrians should go back and fight armed men with AK-47's instead of coming over the border to take what's "theirs." As if weakness of itself, is symptomatic of personal moral fault.
A lot of infectious diseases, that would claim you earlier in life or plague you well into adulthood, are no longer issues. Ever know what it's like to live in a time when tuberculosis was incurable? Hell, do you even have any personal experience with people who've had it?
Nope. Neither do I.
How about dysentery and cholera?
Do you fear catching a cold because the cold can complicate to pneumonia?
And no, I will not trade a little freedom for some security. Even better, why is both unachievable?
Men like Caesar can effectively present a false dilemma. You can have both. His propaganda disgusts me. I'd be weak to submit to his rule rather than seek both things on my own terms.
At least you have bargaining power over House. I can't imagine working for him unless I can twist his arm for concessions about stuff like leaving the Kings alone and not just randomly filling people's homes with concrete for whatever the hell reason. You know, for a guy who ostensibly wants to leave other people alone, he's not very good at it.
NCR at least has decent people like Hanlon and a generally well-meaning citizenry. Much like America, you can find people in the Palestine who don't have a problem with Americans per se as much as they have a problem with its government.
The Japanese seem to view us in an incredibly positive light that I find befuddling. (Americans are viewed as warm, optimistic and outgoing.)
The average Legionary is a xenophobic caveman. Hell, Caesar doesn't even respect them. He thinks they're savages he's elevated. I'm hardly the sort of person who views the tribals as in some state of innocent Eden, but Joshua Graham had to take a look at how Caesar recruits them into his army and go "Whoah, maybe that's a bit extreme."
There's a difference between respecting people's autonomy and idolizing them.
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Earth
Vault Senior Citizen
I'm just pointing out that civilisations like Caesar's Legion have, depressingly, worked over and over again. Diseases like cholera and dysentery have ultimately had very little impact on some of the biggest empires in the world. I'm not saying Caesar's Legion is the best option for the Mojave, but it is a viable one.
Izak
I Shot The ALBATROSS
I wouldn't say it's a viable choice either, most of the definitively "smart" characters tell you that if Caesar were to take Vegas then the Mojave and the Legions previously conquered territories will suffer.
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Earth
Vault Senior Citizen
I guess it all depends on whether Caesar lives or not. I think most people agree that the Legion under Lanius would fragment, but Caesar does seem to have more control. If his cancer is cured, and he is able to make his dialectic a reality in taking Vegas, then it is left to theory over whether he could consolidate his new empire to a point of stability or not.
Basically, the big flaw with any of these kinds of empires is that they are centred around an individual. Would Caesar have enough time to build a stable infrastructure like that of the Roman Empire? Maybe. Or will it fall apart back into a group of warring tribes, similar to Christendom or medieval Japan, stable in its ever-constant conflict?
Basically, the big flaw with any of these kinds of empires is that they are centred around an individual. Would Caesar have enough time to build a stable infrastructure like that of the Roman Empire? Maybe. Or will it fall apart back into a group of warring tribes, similar to Christendom or medieval Japan, stable in its ever-constant conflict?
Izak
I Shot The ALBATROSS
I guess I just can't see Caesar producing an heir or choosing a successor, I think he's to ego obsessed to ever chose a proverbial equal so I always imagine the Legion falling into disarray within 5-10 years after taking Vegas; but maybe his Hegelian dialectics will work out and the Legion will become Rome, maybe I'm being too close minded about the Legion.
Earth
Vault Senior Citizen
I do wonder why he doesn't have dozens of children at this point. Maybe he does, and we don't see them because they're back in Flagstaff or something. You're right about his ego though. I can't see him ever wanting to choose a successor. Maybe he fears having children or giving anyone more control will just lead to a new opponent for power (if he's read his history books, he should know most Roman Emperors didn't die sleeping peacefully in bed, including his original namesake).
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Umm, let me get this straight. Just because the Khans treat their women better, suddenly they're more of a comparison to the Mongols? Wow, that logic... astounds. You ignore the mass rape, mass brutality and severe laws put in by the Mongols, akin like the Legion. Also there's a racial identity being taken away, but the Romans did that more.
I understand, and I disagree with the legion. However before saying how their empire will collapse due to diseases (they rarely do), keep in mind that many medical problems that plague people today won't exist. Violence in their territory will be generally low due to high stability and order, drugs of various types won't be used meaning that the problem that still plagues America won't exist. While many will die, their immune system in general will be tougher then the normal man. Where does it say this? Their hatred of the weak is usually because of high drug use, prostitution (a bit hypocritical that one), crime and various other reasons. Where have they gone full on contempt to innocents that suffer from none of those problems? Nipton was pretty degenerate, willing to betray whoever for an amount of money. A lot of the rest were purely military tactics. The Legion would have let Primm be as long as they didn't fight back. Goodsprings would be left alone.
That right wing thinking is what I expect from Caesar, but perhaps it's slightly justified (SLIGHTLY, don't paint me as a right wing nutcase) mainly due to the fact that the Syrians are running partly from other Syrians. Also that these refugees flee to select countries. Russia has the space and need of more workers and no one goes there. Small countries like Austria don't want that at all and people go there. They're only in it for themselves, as good as their intentions are.
Umm, actually I have. My parents lived in the Soviet Union, where medicine was behind the west. My grandparents lived in the early soviet union, where medicine was almost non-existent. There were diseases, but there weren't vast epidemics which destroyed vast amounts of lives, causing hell and chaos. That was relegated to starvation and fighting. So... yeah.
You realize that even now, one of the best ways of stopping diseases is improving the immune system by it, by putting in a weakened version of the disease?
Easy for you to say, you haven't lived in a country that's gone to hell, and has TONS of freedom! But no security... my grandparents have lived in areas like that and it's hell. It's why so many older people supported the USSR. Sure it was a oppressive hellhole, but it did provide better safety. Actually both is difficult, especially in a world like Fallout. America has both, yet it still has instability. Areas that have both perfectly have little problems outside the system, like the Baltic and Scandinavian countries. So Caesar does have a point.
The best examples of that are only on the Strip, but even then he doesn't help Freeside. He only deals with the Kings if they help the NCR, because to him they're his enemy. In comparison to the NCR and Caesar, he leaves things well alone usually.
Hanlon is considered one of the more Imperialistic of the NCR, the NCR that many reject and dislike. So... what does that say? True. How is that surprising? We're talking about a country that was rebuilt by America, with American money and support pouring into the country that they and the original government laid waste to.
I agree, hopefully when he takes Vegas he can start initiating reforms to make a more Roman society. The way he collects his troops isn't that strange.
Uhhh, I never claimed that. So it's not relevant.
You're realllly overestimating the impact drug use has on population growth. Comparing the 17th century to the 21st is like night and day.
And it's not like societies have zero mores about drug use. Legion just go-pants-on-head zero tolerance.
The average span of life was like 30 or something back in the 17th century. Not because people didn't live to around 60 or 70, but because of infant mortality. Basically refusing medicine chokes your population growth for no good reason. It also means that citizens with a lot of knowledge, experience or skill sometimes just slowly waste away from an easily curable disease. The discovery of antibiotics has a huge impact on the average lifespan.
There's a Speech check where one of the Legionaries at the Caesar's camp. He dismisses you as a weakling if you claim that you need meds for a congenital heart problem and warns you not to share your meds with anybody. (Essentially this lets you smuggle your stimpacks etcetera into the place.)
The idea that letting nature take its course makes you stronger and therefore, we need no medicine, is ass backwards thinking.
Not that Legionaries are very smart people on the whole. Not a lot of distinction is made between mashed up weeds and what most people as think of modern pharmaceuticals, although they're both basically "chems" scientifically.
So the whole cultural attitude is fucking stupid anyway. They accept some technology but reject others based on . . . I dunno, magical thinking or something.
Ironically enough, stimpacks are made of exactly the same components as healing powder in the NV canon. Which implies that one is simply a much more refined version of the other.
They also claim NCR citizens are profligates instead of dissolute. Yeah they have a special word for saying that you pretend to be civilized but actually aren't, for their value of civilized. It's very hard to appreciate the distinction when they'll enslave you or throw you up on a cross either way.
We're talking the Legion. Whose only acceptable medicine is powder and juices made of weeds.
I somehow doubt the SU lacked antibiotics or vaccines.
Mind you, unlike the Soviet Union, the Legion really doesn't have the excuse of poverty. It's mentioned that (male) traders love to business in their territory and they have abundant natural resources.
So it isn't a matter of not being able to use medicine, but an outright refusal to use it.
And this is Fallout. You literally cure Caesar by raiding a Vault and digging up a piece of Prewar tech. Also there's these charitable Good Samaritans running around trying to heal everybody.
Medicine ain't that hard.
Wait. What? How does this help your case?
That we can use medicine to replicate the few good effects of not having medicine?
The problem isn't whether Timmy has a strong immune system.
The problem is that Timmy lives -- but Jimmy, Bobby and Susan still die. Also Jimmy and Bobby's mom die in childbirth.
Susan's mom has a Rick, but then also dies from complications.
Timmy has a gimp leg. Rick doesn't. Rick becomes a Legionary.
Rick is then fed propaganda about his innate superiority.
There's some chance Timmy might use his talents to cut a niche for himself, but his prospects aren't looking that good socially. And he may not be able to contribute meaningfully society anymore because, after all, he's just a weakling. There isn't much demand for dongs unless they're suitable recruits.
I might also mention that NCR and the greater Mojave region probably have comparable immune systems anyway as a lot of people in both live the life of prospectors, caravaneers and ranchers. NCR may be fairly advanced culturally, but not the point that they have anything like a consumer society of Prewar America. (Which is House's plan in a nutshell. He's going to make them that way in exchange for the resources he needs for his own plans.)
If you're an American going to Mexico or whatever, you just don't use their ice. And the worst of it is that you have really bad stomach pains.
Wait what? No he wasn't.
Hanlons's the leader of the rangers who is disgusted with the loss of NCR life in the Mojave. He doesn't think Vegas is worth it. He's specifically feeding false radio reports in the hopes of hurting morale and expediting the day that NCR withdraws. He also knows that Oliver resents his success and tends to give the worst assignments to the Rangers, so whatever the outcome, the Rangers always gets the worst casualties of any fight barring some fortuitous luck like the tactical maneuver at Boulder City. He's worried that there won't be some brilliant trick the second time to spare his men.
There's a whole quest line where you discover his subterfuge and can wind up killing him, getting him to turn himself in, keeping his secret or persuading him that the war is winnable. If Hanlon's reputation is kept intact and the NCR ending isn't achieved, he specifically denounces Kimball and Oliver for their "hawkish imperialist ways" and is elected senator of Redding.
He's the far gone opposite of an imperialist. But he's a soldier and he has to follow orders, whether he agrees with them or not.
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Dr Fallout
Centurion
Shit, I thought you referred to General Oliver. Okay, fair enough then. Even then, he's not exactly an influential government official like General Oliver. He commands the Rangers, but it doesn't seem like he holds a lot of political influence. So while he may be good, he's not exactly an even balance to Oliver and Kimball.
Apart from shortening life span that means that diseases won't have a major effect on stability, basically rendering the whole disease argument useless from my point of view, as I am not arguing for a society that betters singular Humans all the time, but a society that can put in a stable and lawful government. So to my argument it's the only relevant aspect of diseases. They don't make large problems to the society, meaning that the lack of medicine doesn't matter for the Empire in general.
Not really, though I admit the main problem is the response by the authorities. It's too tough to be effective, as many just get it from underworld means which increases crime but it's too weak to have an actual effect on drug use, meaning lot's of people still do drugs. And when you look at the statistics, drug use has had a large effect. The Legion go full way, which ensures that not only do they stop the problems of drugs, but more importantly they go past the problem of half-assed responses.
A lot of infant mortality was due to diseases from the poor living conditions (poor hygiene, etc) and domestic violence or neglect. True, but there's a MASSIVE problem you haven't considered. You expect that the Legion are going to live in the conditions of Victorian London (aka shit, squalor and much more shit). However their lifestyle is more akin to various native tribes, which surprisingly with their herbal medicine DID NOT suffer from lot's of diseases until of course others were introduced, and they were weak due to their weak immune system.
Actually... that is what happens, I can't believe you've never heard of that. Isn't it common knowledge? You have to survive the disease, which is where the problem mainly is. And you realize the Legion uses some medicine? Herbal medicine which has been used for centuries to varying degrees of success. You keep acting as if the Legion don't use medicine at all, which is false. You know, it's surprising how much 'mashed up weeds' help! Umm no, it's because their version of medicine is self sufficient, it uses natural resources that grow in the Mojave instead of relying on machinery and drug labs. They can use their medicine no matter where they are, as long as there are plants that they can source helpful powders. That's why, it's just a useful skill to have. Ask any survival expert, who uses 'mashed up weeds' if there's a lack of medical help.
Which relies on more technology, not simple materials that can be made with simplicity.
'bring (a place or people) to a stage of social development considered to be more advanced.' That's the definition, note the word CONSIDERED. In the end it's subjective, and in comparison the Legion are advanced.
Which works! And has been proven to work for a long, long time!
For my grandparents they didn't exist until later, when the Soviet Union was fully joined and stabilized.
And they aren't necessarily poor. All you've seen are their military camps, nothing else. How can you judge home life if that's all you see? They use herbal medicine, which is still medicine. So your view of medicine is skewed and incorrect.
Further response will come later.
Einhanderc7
Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection
I think its funny that everyone forgets that the "Enclave" was nothing more than plot device to give the players something to fight against similar to the master in Fallout. The original Fallout's had "evil factions" like evil doers in a comic book.
The enclave were never supposed to be used again after FO2, the only reason they made another appearance in FO3 is because Bethesda.
I was honestly expecting a new and sinister enemy to confront in FO3 but instead we all got a recycled bad "guy".
If anything everyone should be cheezed that they got duped like this, at least FO4 created a new bad guy, but lets be honest that was just a Enclave clone in white scientist lab coats.
I would like to see an original wasteland threat that has a tangible impact in the Fallout lore and world. Not some stop gap "I came up with an idea while taking a dump" idea.
Here is a rather simple idea, a raider warlord has seized control of a large swath of land and is oppressing its people to horrifying degree, the player manages to defeat this "evil" about half way through the game to only realize that the warlord was the lesser evil and was the only opposing force to something truly sinister lurking on the boarder of its lands. Then the player has to contend with that "evil bad guy here".
The enclave were never supposed to be used again after FO2, the only reason they made another appearance in FO3 is because Bethesda.
I was honestly expecting a new and sinister enemy to confront in FO3 but instead we all got a recycled bad "guy".
If anything everyone should be cheezed that they got duped like this, at least FO4 created a new bad guy, but lets be honest that was just a Enclave clone in white scientist lab coats.
I would like to see an original wasteland threat that has a tangible impact in the Fallout lore and world. Not some stop gap "I came up with an idea while taking a dump" idea.
Here is a rather simple idea, a raider warlord has seized control of a large swath of land and is oppressing its people to horrifying degree, the player manages to defeat this "evil" about half way through the game to only realize that the warlord was the lesser evil and was the only opposing force to something truly sinister lurking on the boarder of its lands. Then the player has to contend with that "evil bad guy here".
Fallout 5 will have the Master back. You will see. Why? Because Fallout 5 will be called FALLOUT. That's why.
I had an idea similar to Van Buren's Dr Presper and his NCR cronies (talking about NCR Presper, not the Pre War version) for my Fallout idea; the player would essentially take on another player character.
Not as in this being a multiplayer game but rather the player would take on a similar 'Agent of Change' and his cronies just as the player is an agent of change; a person who can set events into motion and influence the outcome.
There would be regular armies for the player to ally with or fight again and they would certainly have an impact on an endgame, but the plot would not revolve around them or a hidden army, they are just participants in a storyline that would start out rather personal but then would come to encompass an entire region in which the player and his nemesis would have to confront each other regarding its future.
I like the Super Mutants, I like the Enclave (Fallout 2 and FNV version), I like the Legion, I even like the idea of the Institute but not its execution (I would have liked to see them be more moral gray and have an actual agenda), but I think that not every Fallout game should be about yet another secret army coming out of hiding to take over the world. (Legion would be exception on this, they were not a 'secret army')
Have governments and organizations play a role in a storyline but also try to play with new ideas instead of continuously use the old and repeated.
As for the OP's question, the Enclave is dead and gone. (they should not have been returned to strength in FO3 and they should certainly come back in any form other than ex Enclave remnants)
Not as in this being a multiplayer game but rather the player would take on a similar 'Agent of Change' and his cronies just as the player is an agent of change; a person who can set events into motion and influence the outcome.
There would be regular armies for the player to ally with or fight again and they would certainly have an impact on an endgame, but the plot would not revolve around them or a hidden army, they are just participants in a storyline that would start out rather personal but then would come to encompass an entire region in which the player and his nemesis would have to confront each other regarding its future.
I like the Super Mutants, I like the Enclave (Fallout 2 and FNV version), I like the Legion, I even like the idea of the Institute but not its execution (I would have liked to see them be more moral gray and have an actual agenda), but I think that not every Fallout game should be about yet another secret army coming out of hiding to take over the world. (Legion would be exception on this, they were not a 'secret army')
Have governments and organizations play a role in a storyline but also try to play with new ideas instead of continuously use the old and repeated.
As for the OP's question, the Enclave is dead and gone. (they should not have been returned to strength in FO3 and they should certainly come back in any form other than ex Enclave remnants)
Radiosity
Writiosity
I'll just leave this here: http://www.radkatsu.uk/2016/04/reconstructing-fallout-3-part-15/
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
Actually, I would expect the FO5 villain to be a hybrid cross of the Master and the Calculator.